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mrvmax
01-15-2004, 10:33 PM
O.K., the idea comes from another thread in tactical scenarios/suppressed shot. The question is, how would a Christian act in this situation;

You & your 3 man SF team have been roaming the desert at night ( holding up during the day ) for several days. You've succesfully identified some heavy weapons/Scuds, which have been taken out by the Air Force, with your well directed Laser Markers.

This is your last afternoon & you are well hidden. Awaiting darkness, when you will 'yomp' several miles to be picked up by chopper.

There are enemy troops out searching in large numbers, but haven't picked up your trail, and seem to be moving off in another direction.
A shepard boy of 10/11 years old is following his flock of goats, & coming closer to your position every minute. You cannot move. the enemy troops will notice.
The flock of goats & boy eventually are apon your position, & the boy sees you. He stands there open mouthed. Too far to grab. He looks over at the departing enemy troops knowing if he runs & shouts he'll attract their attention. You know that too.
You have your supressed H&K .45 SOCOM Pistol centred on his little face. The sound of the shot won't reach the departing enemy troops. His shout will, particularly with him running off in their direction.

Take the shot ? Or wait & see ?

By the way................He reminds you of your own little boy back at home who sends you letters every week, waiting desperatly for your safe return home. Your safe return home may depend on the shot.

I have given my opinion in the other forum, but wonder what other Christians think. I have often thought about this subject of Christians in these situations. Just because we are given orders by superiors, God still holds us responsible for our actions according to the Bible standards. The My Lai massacre in Vietnam comes to mind. Anyway, what do you all think?

DaveJames
01-16-2004, 09:24 AM
posted my thoughts in the other posring, but yes you can be

Pale Horse
01-16-2004, 11:03 AM
Dave James hit the nail on the head. Read over the current posts and you will see my answer.

Christian are called to do whatever they do with all their heart, soul, mind and strenth. If that means killing then thats what they are supposed to do unless it contradicts what the Word of God says. In which case they would have to disobey no matter what the cost. Whom shall you fear men who can send you to the grave or Fear God.

Sam Spade
01-16-2004, 12:21 PM
The scenario you post happened, twice that I'm aware of.

The SF team did not shoot the child. They came out just fine. Sounds like a validation of the concept to me.

Anthony
01-16-2004, 12:42 PM
mrvmax,
Can Cristians be SFs ? Can they be Infantry ? Can they be bomber pilots, - who kill more innocents ( unintensionaly ) than all the SFs troops put together.
The answer is YES.
In fact I think that they SHOULD be. It will allow them to make better discisions at that dificult moment, - like the one I posted.

Regards,
Anthony.

michael
01-16-2004, 03:09 PM
Okay, I'm going to hijack the thread for just a moment. Two excellent books I've read about Christian warriors--"A More Elite Soldier" by Chuck Holton (an Army Ranger at the time) and "Tender Warrior" and other books by Stu Weber (ex Army Ranger). They prove that you can be both SF and a Christian. Sorry for the hijack, but I was too tempted. :p

mrvmax
01-16-2004, 04:47 PM
I'm not saying that a Christian cannot be, I only raise the point that it can be difficult at times. Given this real life scenario the Christian would not have been justified in killing the boy. So, what if it were you and the NCOIC or OIC gives the command to shoot? You can disobey God or man. I choose to disobey man and not shoot in this situation. I really respect this man who made the call, regardless of his belief in God or not (which I do not know his belief).

mrvmax
01-16-2004, 04:57 PM
Dave James hit the nail on the head. Read over the current posts and you will see my answer.

Christian are called to do whatever they do with all their heart, soul, mind and strenth. If that means killing then thats what they are supposed to do unless it contradicts what the Word of God says. In which case they would have to disobey no matter what the cost. Whom shall you fear men who can send you to the grave or Fear God.

I agree wholeheartedly, we are to obey UNTIL IT CONTRADICTS THE WORD OF GOD.

Garand
01-18-2004, 07:52 PM
Are you kidding me? In my opinion you can’t be a true warrior if you are not a Christian. Refer to the writings of the great theologian CS Lewis, an infantryman in WWI who said, “Killing your enemy in a time war is a glorious thing. Do not hang you head low but rejoice in the glory of battle!” Who else but a Christian can look his opponent in the eye and not be afraid of death for he only fears the one that can direct his sole!

For reassurance on this issue first look up the word kill in Hebrew. In scripture it states that there is a time to kill. The word kill is used to describe hunting or warfare. Killing is moral. Murder is not. Murder has premeditation, malice or revenge at its core and is sin.

All children go to heaven out of innocence and in the situation formerly described this would be the case. Children are frequently used in 3rd world countries to make war, ask a Vietnam Vet. We are getting soldiers killed in the sand box now because of this pc attitude.

The difficulty with modern day troops is that they do not know who they are. This has held true every since the Civil War. Rent one of the most Godly movies I have seen called God and Generals (I think was the title?) It’s historically accurate to the letter with many direct quotes from Stonewall Jackson. At that time even the most crude around the campfire could quote scripture chapter and verse! In their minds they were serving God covered under Biblical authority and were sending their enemies to their maker. When the war was over they went back to their lives with no PTSD or guilt. As a good citizen they felt morally sound being in submission to principalities, powers and governments acting under the sovereign will of God!

mrvmax
01-18-2004, 10:10 PM
Are you kidding me? In my opinion you can’t be a true warrior if you are not a Christian. Refer to the writings of the great theologian CS Lewis, an infantryman in WWI who said, “Killing your enemy in a time war is a glorious thing. Do not hang you head low but rejoice in the glory of battle!” Who else but a Christian can look his opponent in the eye and not be afraid of death for he only fears the one that can direct his sole!

For reassurance on this issue first look up the word kill in Hebrew. In scripture it states that there is a time to kill. The word kill is used to describe hunting or warfare. Killing is moral. Murder is not. Murder has premeditation, malice or revenge at its core and is sin.

All children go to heaven out of innocence and in the situation formerly described this would be the case. Children are frequently used in 3rd world countries to make war, ask a Vietnam Vet. We are getting soldiers killed in the sand box now because of this pc attitude.

The difficulty with modern day troops is that they do not know who they are. This has held true every since the Civil War. Rent one of the most Godly movies I have seen called God and Generals (I think was the title?) It’s historically accurate to the letter with many direct quotes from Stonewall Jackson. At that time even the most crude around the campfire could quote scripture chapter and verse! In their minds they were serving God covered under Biblical authority and were sending their enemies to their maker. When the war was over they went back to their lives with no PTSD or guilt. As a good citizen they felt morally sound being in submission to principalities, powers and governments acting under the sovereign will of God!


I can agree with you but nevertheless, there are some situations during war that would not be justified (in my opinion and study of scripture). I disagree with the saying “Killing your enemy in a time war is a glorious thing. Do not hang you head low but rejoice in the glory of battle!” . I do not see any teachings directed toward me that tell me to glory in killing. I will do it when necessary but I will never glory in taking someone's life that was made in the image of God. I do not see how any Chiristian can. I can kill my enemy when necessary but will always wonder whether they have accpeted or rejected The Christ. How can I glory in someone going to hell? Not all actions during war are scripturally justified, not everything goes in war. A Christian must still follow the principles within scripture and apply them to the situation at hand. Ultimately we answer to God and not to man. By the way, Gods and Generals is one of my favorite movies. People still try to deny the Christian heritage of our forefathers, it's beyond me why.

Garand
01-19-2004, 06:47 AM
I can agree with you but nevertheless, there are some situations during war that would not be justified (in my opinion and study of scripture). I disagree with the saying “Killing your enemy in a time war is a glorious thing. Do not hang you head low but rejoice in the glory of battle!” . I do not see any teachings directed toward me that tell me to glory in killing. I will do it when necessary but I will never glory in taking someone's life that was made in the image of God. I do not see how any Chiristian can. I can kill my enemy when necessary but will always wonder whether they have accpeted or rejected The Christ. How can I glory in someone going to hell? Not all actions during war are scripturally justified, not everything goes in war. A Christian must still follow the principles within scripture and apply them to the situation at hand. Ultimately we answer to God and not to man. By the way, Gods and Generals is one of my favorite movies. People still try to deny the Christian heritage of our forefathers, it's beyond me why.

I agree with you that not anything goes during combat. Some of my patients in the VA hospital have expressed how they were given over to blood lust. I believe you can dishonor yourself in combat by collecting ears, mauling bodies, torturing you enemy.

Moreover, I do not think you should fight in a war with dishonorable leadership. If the cause is not just and you know it, if it is possible, quit. I resigned my commission when William Jefferson Clinton took office.

Scriptural justification off the top of my head in Romans 12: 18 “If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.” Sometimes it is not possible. The wrath of God may be delivered through men I think in Mathew, there is a time to kill and a time for war in Eccl 3, not to mention all of Joshua’s campaigns. If I had more time I would do more references.

How could you not rejoice after seeing evil vanquished and God’s plan come to pass!

Pale Horse
01-26-2004, 09:51 AM
The verse is translated "Thou shalt not MURDER."

"Besides being SF means killing, Maming and being ruthless." This is speculation with the exception of Killing. You should spend some time in Joshua, 1 and 2 Samuel, Rom 13 and Col 3 to get a better idea of what the Lord thinks of soilders.

I dont know if you got some of these misconceptions from the media or what, but you are using a very broad stroke to brush these men with. Some of these men are married and have children and they are not the Rambo kill you as soon as look at you blood thirsty killers people make them out to be. However, sometimes they are called to kill in accordance with Rom 13 for the government.

We are called to love our neighbor, but that has very very little to do with war. An example for you. Sadams son Uday raped hundreds of women if you were there to see one and said I must love my neighbor in this case Uday and let him carry out this act of evil against a helpless woman because he is your neighbor. You would not be loving that woman by letting the her get harmed.

All that to say that the love thy neighbor card does not apply in the context you were using it.

Anthony
01-26-2004, 10:25 AM
Pale Horse beat me to it. - How are you Marine ?
The correct translation from Hebrew should read - 'thou shall not MURDER'. Not 'thou shall not kill'.
It was also translated wrongly into Portuguese, & I suspect many other languages too.

Regards,
Anthony.

Pale Horse
01-26-2004, 10:28 AM
Semper Fi Anthony, I am well. How are you doing? I guess great minds think alike.

Anthony
01-26-2004, 11:54 AM
Semper Fi Anthony, I am well. How are you doing? I guess great minds think alike.

I'm OK Pale Horse. - I don't know if my mind is so great these days :p

I'm trying to locate & then post an essay. It was first published in The Wall Street Jornal. Soldier of Fortune then published the essay with permission.
This was in December 1988. 'Parting Shot'.
'From Saigon to Central Casting' by William K. Lane,Jr.
I still have my copy of the magazine. The essay is ( & always will be ) FANTASTIC !
Bill Lane served as executive officer of a Special Forces A Team during his tour in 1968.
It is required reading IMHO !

If I can't find a link, then I'll type the essay & ask 'Admin' if it can go ( legally ) on the Forum.

This essay could well put an end to this question; - Can Cristians be SFs. And answer a few other questions too.

All the best.
Anthony.

mrvmax
01-27-2004, 08:44 PM
The verse is translated "Thou shalt not MURDER."

"Besides being SF means killing, Maming and being ruthless." This is speculation with the exception of Killing. You should spend some time in Joshua, 1 and 2 Samuel, Rom 13 and Col 3 to get a better idea of what the Lord thinks of soilders.



A distinction must be made when referring to Old testament passages concerning war. Many times these men went to battle and killed entire populations (or were instructed to anyway) because they were told directly by God what to do. God had specific plans for the nation of Israel. Fast forward to today. We in the U.S. cannot say that God has directed us to go anywhere and destroy anybody. Keep that context in mind. Romans 13 only appliese to Christians UNTIL OUR SUPERIORS CONTRADICT WHAT GOD HAS COMMANDED US. We are not suposed to blindly follow the governement, that is not the intent of Romans 13. I am not saying it is wrong to be a soldier, it is not, but lets consider the context of the passages to get a better understanding.

mrvmax
01-27-2004, 08:53 PM
The verse is translated "Thou shalt not MURDER."

We are called to love our neighbor, but that has very very little to do with war. An example for you. Sadams son Uday raped hundreds of women if you were there to see one and said I must love my neighbor in this case Uday and let him carry out this act of evil against a helpless woman because he is your neighbor. You would not be loving that woman by letting the her get harmed.



You do not love your nieghbor by letting him hurt others. It is alright to stop or prevent that while still being a loving neighbor. The problem comes when we try to do the job of God, to judge and condemn those that are criminals. Romans 12:9 tells us that God will repay. He will be the one to avenge, not us. Yes, capitol punishment was instituted by God according to the law He set forth and was followed by the Isaraelites. We must not overstep our bounds. Every sin will be paid for either by the person themself in Hell, or by accepting the sacrifice made for our sins at Calvary. Do not ever forget, there are only two types of people in this world, lost and saved, yet we are all still sinners. It is only by the saving grace of God that I am the person I am, I could have easily been a muderer, or rapist. Who knows what I would have done without Christ.

Gabriel Suarez
01-27-2004, 11:37 PM
Brothers,

This from our pastor when discussing this particular thread.

*******
The Special Forces Prayer

Almighty God Who art the Author of Liberty and the Champion of the oppressed hear our prayer.

We the men of Special Forces, acknowledge our dependence upon Thee in the preservation of human freedom. Go with us as we seek to defend the defenseless and to free the enslaved.

May we ever remember that our nation, whose oath "in God We Trust," expects that we shall requit ourselves with honor, that we may never bring shame upon our faith, our families, or our fellow men.

Grant us wisdom from Thy mind, courage from Thine heart, and protection by Thine hand. It is for Thee that we do battle, and to thee belongs the victor's crown. For Thine is the kingdom, and the power and glory forever,

Amen!

*******

Some observations -

1). Romans 12:9 tells us that God will repay.

And He uses the hand of man to do it.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


2). Tienken, you need to re-read the Scriptures.

Pale Horse
01-28-2004, 10:01 AM
When I was referring to the old testament it was for believers to look and see that there are men of God who did go to war. I was not saying that God was going to come out of the sky and say, Keelan, thats me I want you to go and kill _____ . The scripture is clear that believers can be SFs Look at David's Mighty men in 2 Samuel 19 I think, its around the time David dies. In any area of life if someone is saying that you should disobey the Lords Word they are to be disobeyed, not just in the military. When you enlist in the US military you are going to be used to fight wars over peoples freedom, oil, pepsi, goodyear tires and whatever other nation intrest is out there if you dont like it then it would be best not to join.

In looking over the thread and having read the scriptures I know that its ok for a Christian to be a SF. There is a General in the army who I was reading on last week or the week before. Who was there for Somilia and he had to take mens lives because they were going to do the same thing to his men. Sometimes you dont get to pick what happens in the military you have to follow orders, when legal, kill when necessary, and go where you dont want to all for the sake of serving God in the military. I have been in the service and this is my experience.

Garand
01-30-2004, 07:36 AM
C.S. Lewis, on of the great theologians of our time, could not have said it better in his book Mere Christianity.

“Does loving your enemy mean not punishing him? No, for loving myself does not mean that I ought not to subject myself to punishment – even to death. If one had committed a murder, the right Christian thing to do would be to give yourself up to the police and be hanged. It is, therefore, in my opinion, perfectly right for a Christian judge to sentence a man to death or a Christian soldier to kill an enemy. I always have thought so, ever since I became a Christian, and long before the war (WW1 infantryman), and I still think so now that we are at peace. If is no good quoting “Thou shalt not kill.” There are two Greek words: the ordinary word to kill and the word to murder. And when Christ quotes that commandment He uses the murder one in all three accounts, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. And I am told there is the same distinction in Hebrew. All killing is not murder any more that all sexual intercourse in adultery. When soldiers came to St. John the Baptist asking what to do, he never remotely suggested that they ought to leave the army; nor did Christ when He met a Roman knight – the Christian in arms for the defense of a good cause – is one of the great Christian ideas. War is a dreadful thing, and I can respect an honest pacifist, though I think he is entirely mistaken. What I can not understand is this sort of semi pacifism you get nowadays which gives people the idea that thought you have to fight, you ought to do it with a long face and as if you were ashamed of it.; If is that feeling that robs lots of magnificent young Christians in the Services of something they have a right to, something which is the natural accompaniment of courage – a kind of gaiety and wholeheartedness.
I imagine somebody will say, “Well, if one is allowed to condemn the enemy’s acts, and punish him, and kill him, what difference is left between Christian morality and the ordinary view?” All the difference in the world. Remember, we Christians think man lives for ever. Therefore, what really matters is those little marks or twists on the central, inside part of the soul, which are going to turn it, in the long run, into a heavenly or a hellish creature. We may kill if necessary, but we must not hate and enjoy hating. We may punish if necessary, but we must not enjoy it. In other words, something inside us, the feeling of resentment, the feeling that wants to get one’s own back, must be simply killed. I do not mean that anyone can decide this moment that he will never feel it any more. That is not how things happen. I mean that every time it bibs itts head up, day after day, year after year, all our lives long, we must hit it on the head. If is hard work, but the attempt is not impossible, Even while we kill and punish we must try to feel about the enemy as we feel about the enemy as we feel about ourselves – to wish that he were not bad, to hope that he may, in this world or another, be cured; in fact, to which his good. That is what is meant in the Bible by loving him; wishing his good, not feeling fond of him nor saying he is nice when he is not.”

Vig Creed
01-30-2004, 08:19 AM
Decisions like this shouldn't be all that difficult. If it will save American lives to take the shot, or will result in Americans getting killed if you don't, then take the shot. You aren't there to baby-sit the enemy. You are there to destroy them and protect your own.

There are several places in the Bible when the people of God were called upon to kill ALL the enemy, regardless of age, sex, etc. It's nothing new.

creed

mrvmax
01-30-2004, 01:59 PM
C.S. Lewis, on of the great theologians of our time, could not have said it better in his book Mere Christianity.

“Does loving your enemy mean not punishing him? No, for loving myself does not mean that I ought not to subject myself to punishment – even to death. If one had committed a murder, the right Christian thing to do would be to give yourself up to the police and be hanged. It is, therefore, in my opinion, perfectly right for a Christian judge to sentence a man to death or a Christian soldier to kill an enemy. I always have thought so, ever since I became a Christian, and long before the war (WW1 infantryman), and I still think so now that we are at peace. If is no good quoting “Thou shalt not kill.” There are two Greek words: the ordinary word to kill and the word to murder. And when Christ quotes that commandment He uses the murder one in all three accounts, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. And I am told there is the same distinction in Hebrew. All killing is not murder any more that all sexual intercourse in adultery. When soldiers came to St. John the Baptist asking what to do, he never remotely suggested that they ought to leave the army; nor did Christ when He met a Roman knight – the Christian in arms for the defense of a good cause – is one of the great Christian ideas. War is a dreadful thing, and I can respect an honest pacifist, though I think he is entirely mistaken. What I can not understand is this sort of semi pacifism you get nowadays which gives people the idea that thought you have to fight, you ought to do it with a long face and as if you were ashamed of it.; If is that feeling that robs lots of magnificent young Christians in the Services of something they have a right to, something which is the natural accompaniment of courage – a kind of gaiety and wholeheartedness.
I imagine somebody will say, “Well, if one is allowed to condemn the enemy’s acts, and punish him, and kill him, what difference is left between Christian morality and the ordinary view?” All the difference in the world. Remember, we Christians think man lives for ever. Therefore, what really matters is those little marks or twists on the central, inside part of the soul, which are going to turn it, in the long run, into a heavenly or a hellish creature. We may kill if necessary, but we must not hate and enjoy hating. We may punish if necessary, but we must not enjoy it. In other words, something inside us, the feeling of resentment, the feeling that wants to get one’s own back, must be simply killed. I do not mean that anyone can decide this moment that he will never feel it any more. That is not how things happen. I mean that every time it bibs itts head up, day after day, year after year, all our lives long, we must hit it on the head. If is hard work, but the attempt is not impossible, Even while we kill and punish we must try to feel about the enemy as we feel about the enemy as we feel about ourselves – to wish that he were not bad, to hope that he may, in this world or another, be cured; in fact, to which his good. That is what is meant in the Bible by loving him; wishing his good, not feeling fond of him nor saying he is nice when he is not.”

good quote, thanks for the info.

mrvmax
01-30-2004, 02:02 PM
Decisions like this shouldn't be all that difficult. If it will save American lives to take the shot, or will result in Americans getting killed if you don't, then take the shot. You aren't there to baby-sit the enemy. You are there to destroy them and protect your own.

There are several places in the Bible when the people of God were called upon to kill ALL the enemy, regardless of age, sex, etc. It's nothing new.

creed

Remember what I posted earlier, these were the Jews ordered by God to kill all of the enemy. No one today falls within the same category today. God has not directed anyone to do this today. Consider the context of the passage.

michael
01-30-2004, 02:12 PM
Garand, thanks for the quote. I have that book on my list to read. I've heard that it is one of the best, if not the best, book on Christianity there is. I can't wait to read it. C.S. Lewis is awesome.

Garand
01-30-2004, 05:48 PM
Remember what I posted earlier, these were the Jews ordered by God to kill all of the enemy. No one today falls within the same category today. God has not directed anyone to do this today. Consider the context of the passage.

Here’s some scripture that cane help:

In considering the value of Old Testament scripture 2nd Tim 3:16 is helpful. “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” We can know God’s mind towards a subject even though he may be speaking to Jews. Proper bible interpretation (expository method) includes literary context and one of the rules is to support your Old Testament scripture with New Testament scripture. In this case Romans is helpful.

Romans 12:18 “If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.” Quite simply it is not always possible to do this.

Romans 13: 1-5 “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same. 4. For he (Government, President, King) is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, and avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath (of men) but also for conscience sake.

This passage continues the OT idea that there is a time to kill and a time appointed for war to be carried out by our contemporary leaders.

Yours in Christ,

Michael

mrvmax
01-31-2004, 11:49 AM
Here’s some scripture that cane help:

In considering the value of Old Testament scripture 2nd Tim 3:16 is helpful. “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” We can know God’s mind towards a subject even though he may be speaking to Jews. Proper bible interpretation (expository method) includes literary context and one of the rules is to support your Old Testament scripture with New Testament scripture. In this case Romans is helpful.

Romans 12:18 “If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.” Quite simply it is not always possible to do this.

Romans 13: 1-5 “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same. 4. For he (Government, President, King) is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, and avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath (of men) but also for conscience sake.

This passage continues the OT idea that there is a time to kill and a time appointed for war to be carried out by our contemporary leaders.

Yours in Christ,

Michael
I understand your point and agree with it. I was just trying to clarify what can be misunderstood. Some assume that since the Jews were commanded to do particular things that this applies to us. Sometimes this is true an sometimes it is not (i.e. eating shellfish, circumcision, the keeping of the festivals etc.). Not only do we see a particular view from the OT, at times Christ has made the laws even stricter. The scriptures you list above in Romans are not a blanket order for us to execute judgement, but they are reasons where it may be necessary.

Gabriel Suarez
02-09-2004, 09:11 AM
at times Christ has made the laws even stricter.

Actually no, Christ has given us freedom. We are to love our God and one another. Period.

There are choices to be made because while loving God is clear, we cannot love everyone here equally.

We love the Islamics, for example. But when they place themselves in a position to attack our families and our God, we have no recourse but to fight them.

mrvmax
02-09-2004, 11:02 AM
Actually no, Christ has given us freedom. We are to love our God and one another. Period.

There are choices to be made because while loving God is clear, we cannot love everyone here equally.

We love the Islamics, for example. But when they place themselves in a position to attack our families and our God, we have no recourse but to fight them.

I will explain: Matthew 5:27 states that it was known that to commit adultery was wrong. In verse 28 Jesus ups the ante a little and declares that if a man looks upon a woman to lust after her he has committed adultery. There are more examples but I believe you will understand my point.

michael
02-09-2004, 11:43 AM
I will explain: Matthew 5:27 states that it was known that to commit adultery was wrong. In verse 28 Jesus ups the ante a little and declares that if a man looks upon a woman to lust after her he has committed adultery. There are more examples but I believe you will understand my point.

I don't understand your point. I don't think this verse has anything to do with upping the ante. It is Jesus clarifying and interpreting scripture for us, as he does many times. Jesus came to give us life more abundantly, not to create more laws. To know Christ is to know freedom, not bondage.